Lets talk RELIGION.....
Seeing how the thread was deleted I will start a new one. Religion isn't a bad word, if used correctly. If we look at history we will find that religion or Christianity was unified and it stood unified until the reform some 1500yrs later. So the question I ask is,
if the Christian Religion was organized all those years what makes you think it shouldnt remain organized today?
if the Christian Religion was organized all those years what makes you think it shouldnt remain organized today?
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Cami on -
Mike
Here is what Wiki says about "religion"
A religion is a set of beliefs and practices, often centered upon specific supernatural and moral claims about reality, the cosmos, and human nature, and often codified as prayer, ritual, and religious law. Religion also encompasses ancestral or cultural traditions, writings, history, and mythology, as well as personal faith and mystic experience. The term "religion" refers to both the personal practices related to communal faith and to group rituals and communication stemming from shared conviction.
In the frame of European religious thought,[1] religions present a common quality, the "hallmark of patriarchal religious thought": the division of the world in two comprehensive domains, one sacred, the other profane.[2] Religion is often described as a communal system for the coherence of belief focusing on a system of thought, unseen being, person, or object, that is considered to be supernatural, sacred, divine, or of the highest truth. Moral codes, practices, values, institutions, tradition, rituals, and scriptures are often traditionally associated with the core belief, and these may have some overlap with concepts in secular philosophy. Religion is also often described as a "way of life" or a Life stance.
The development of religion has taken many forms in various cultures. "Organized religion" generally refers to an organization of people supporting the exercise of some religion with a prescribed set of beliefs, often taking the form of a legal entity (see religion-supporting organization). Other religions believe in personal revelation. "Religion" is sometimes used interchangeably with "faith" or "belief system,"[3] but is more socially defined than that of personal convictions.
Now.. the religion you are talking about, the way I am understanding it.. and forgive me if I am wrong,is the Catholic denominantion ( hence your referral to the reformation). Again.. if I am wrong.. PLEASE forgive me.
Anyway.. my thought on why organized religion has stood so long is because it is in God's will that it should do so. I know Jesus was against " religion" per say, but I also know that nothing can exist or last without it being in God's will. So.. if it is in God's will that organized religion still remain in tact.. then it should.
Sorry if I'm not making sense.. not enough coffee yet. :P
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Permalink Reply by Disciple Mike on -
Your making perfect sense cami.
That's my point if its still around and remained for over 2000yrs(organized religion )
then why does everyone put it down and say we should just run around at random being led by (self) interpertation of the bible?
Wouldnt jesus just of told everyone just to follow the scriptures alone if they alone were able to lead someone to perfect religion?
Or wouldnt he have just said religion or organized religion was bad if it was?
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Permalink Reply by nicholas kropelnicki on -
Here's the problem.. People often get too organized with religion, and they go to church, sing their hymns, fellowship, and maybe contribute a little bit to the programming, but the problem lies is that people get into the habit of turning to the pastor for their questions about God and the way of life, and things like that; it's time to get personal. Alot of churches don't encourage people to take some time off and seek God themselves.. to seek his hands instead of his face, and to really get to know the guy. That's where the randomness comes in.. So whilst religion is not bad (I checked, you're right.. christian is religion,) people all too often get comfortable. and if you're comfortable with where you're at with God, you're not trying hard enough... To be comfortable is to not be hungry..
On the other hand, organized religion is good for bringing people to christ in the first place, just because the rookies have examples, and more people to talk to and people they can befriend and be like, as well as the pastor being able to bring up lessons in the bible or further deep and let the people discuss it. So; it has pro's & cons,
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Permalink Reply by Disciple Mike on
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So Nick what your saying is that Religion isn't the problem, it's the people within the religion that are the problem?
So let me ask you this:
"If God has allowed the organized religion to remain for over 2000yrs could it be possible that its His Will that we remain organized instead of divided like the reform has done?"
Instead of keep dividing the body shouldn't we try to fix the one we already have?
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Permalink Reply by Rudy on -
Hey Mike, it's me again.....:)
"Instead of keep dividing the body shouldn't we try to fix the one we already have? "
I believe that was the main purpose of the reformation, wasn't it? But when it failed, thats when all the different "denominations" came about.
Rudy.
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Permalink Reply by nicholas kropelnicki on
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Well at first, i didn't believe in religion, because my definition of it was wrong, but if christianity is a religion, That's not the problem. A handful of people along the 2000 years came along and decided to either modify the bible, or modify practice, or both, and screwed everything up. so what needs to happen is to convince people that christianity is the true root and god's will, and get the accomodations out of here.. that's been my goal all along.
and the second part of that, is that is nobody starves for him anymore.. they get a routine setup in the church, and live with simply no desire. If at least one out of every 10 people that go to church searched for His hands, then it would be more common to see people randomly falling on their faces in the grocery store, but people get freaked out by that, and wuss out of seeking god.
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Permalink Reply by Disciple Mike on
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Good point Rudy...
When we look at the fruit of the reform we see it has caused nothing but more and more division. Maybe, just maybe that was something that should have never happened. Who really gains when the body of Christ is divided? I would say satan and his demon's. And if that is so then who really was the cause of the reform? I feel the whole reform and the hundreds of denomination's are a very carefull plan of deception by satan.
Now don't mis-quote me, I'm not saying there arent very devote christian's within these denomation's. But just like with any counterfit there are people spending counterfit 20's without even knowing it. It doesn't make them a crook, there just not realizing what there doing is all.
Now lets go back a bit in history. Prior to the reform there was unity within the christian body. This unity was for over 1500yrs. Now ofcourse there were some who didnt agree and sect's appeared here and there, but they never lasted. They would fall by the wayside after some time or there was no growth and they became stagnit or doormant. But the majority of the body stood unified. And as we know this magority was catholic. Now why do you think God allowed the majority of His Body to remain unified and in existance for all these years if they are so wrong?
Doesn't it make more sense to stay within the Body of Christ that has sustained time. And if we disagree with parts or some of the thing's that are going on within it ,to remain within it and try to correct it? I mean how can we fix something if were not there to fix it?
Nick...
your right in my opinion about people not starving enough for our Lord. Many do get very complacent with there faith and walk. It becomes hum-drum and routine to many follower's. But to me that is on the individual, not the organation or the ritual's. These ritual's are placed within organation's to bring people closer to God, but unfortunally more times then most they don't. But its not the ritual that is bad , its the heart of the one performing the ritual that is bad (hence the pharises)
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Permalink Reply by nicholas kropelnicki on
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Sounds about right, now what are your thoughts on catholic? Because i know that is also a denomination, and has rituals that contradict the bible itself, yet it's one of the biggest churches in the world... i mean; their pope is more famous than bush.
And just out of curiosity, what category is baptist, you think? is it a denomination or is it the original fruit so to speak?
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Permalink Reply by Disciple Mike on
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Well Nick I want to choose my words carefully because I don't want this to turn into a catholic debate or bashing of any denomination. I want to try to keep it a healthy discussion on Christianity and the importance of Religion or religious practices.
To answer your question:
"what are your thoughts on catholic?"
I believe that the universal church were catholic all along. The majority of the body then and even till this day is and remains catholic with the largest percent of unity within the body till this day.
I also believe there are things within the RC that have changed over time and these things are mis-understood by many, and taken as being un-biblical but aren't at all.
I do agree somethings aren't necessary and maybe aren't even right, but I believe they were put there with good intensions. But if ones heart isn't right, then really it wouldn't make any difference what practice they did, now would it? Look at what Jesus condemned with the Jews. It wasn't there practices, it was there hearts. He always condemned there hearts because there intensions were selfish. And the same thing is happening in the RC. There are bishops, priest, and even popes who's hearts aren't right. There selfish like the pharises, but that doesn't make there practices wrong, just like with the Jews...
In my opinion the Baptist are a denomination and are a branch off the original tree as are all sect's that were produced from the reform. When I say all sect's I'm speaking of the ones with Christ as there head.
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Permalink Reply by Disciple Mike on
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Can you be a little more specific ponnuswami?
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Permalink Reply by nicholas kropelnicki on
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I see why it's easy to get confused, If a religion is a group of people that believe in the same diety, then christianity is religion, but when you seek jesus out & get to know him on a personal level, then it becomes a relationship, & a more spiritual fact
so the fact that everyone believes in him is religion, but spirituality comes from knowing him. i think that's where he's gettin at. maybe.
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Permalink Reply by Disciple Mike on
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Let me run this analogy by you Nick. If you go to work for a company that you heard about from another friend and during your time there you develop a relationship with your boss, does that change the fact that he is your boss?
During your time at work he remains your boss and you should treat him that way. But that doesnt change your relationship with him or it shouldn't. When your outside of work you might pal around and be the best of friends but when your in a more formal area of business you become more professional.
My point is that when we go to a church(a place of business) we should show a different kind of respect. And just like in any office there are presidents, supervisor's, manager's, and so on, there is a chain of authority.
There are things that are expected of us within this chain and the same goes within organized religion. I believe this also apply's with our "friendship" with Jesus. There is a time to be casual and a time to come before Him as a King above all Kings.
No matter how personal our relationship is with Him He is still our Boss....
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