@ Chris....now for that part about Revelation 4-19 where you try to claim there is no church on earth....Another proof text for the pretribulation rapture theory is Revelation 4:1, “After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, ‘Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.’” Pretribulationists cite this verse and then remark that the church is not observed on earth again until Revelation 19 when believers return to earth for the millennial reign of Christ. Pretribulationists reason that since the church is not mentioned as being on earth during the great tribulation after Revelation 4:1, then John’s removal to heaven must be equated with the rapture. Does Revelation 4:1 and the fact that the word church (ekklesia) is not mentioned in chapters 4 through 18 prove or support the pretribulation rapture theory? There are a number of reasons why this argument in favor of Pretribulationism should be rejected. First, this argument is an argument from silence in which the idea of the pretribulation rapture is presupposed and then imposed upon this section of Scripture. In the immediate context (Revelation 4:2) it says that John the apostle is transported to the throne room of heaven. Not one word is uttered that suggests that John represents the church or that the people of God as a whole are taken to heaven. Also, there is not any mention or any indication whatsoever of a descent by Christ or a resurrection of the saints. In Revelation 4:1 there is mention of a trumpet but this is not the trumpet blast announcing the rapture. It is a voice that has a sound of a trumpet just like the voice of authority that John heard in Revelation 1:10, “I was in the Spirit on the Lord's Day, and I heard behind me a loud voice, as of a trumpet.” What occurred in Revelation 4:1 with John was no different than the transportation and throne room scenes experienced by other prophets (e.g., Ezek. 1:1, 22-28; 8:3-4 [Ezekiel is apparently below the crystal sea looking up to the throne room]; Isa. 6:1 ff.; 2 Cor. 12:1-4). Second, the argument from silence is arbitrarily applied to Revelation and could be used to prove many heretical doctrines if applied to other theological topics. The argument from silence consistently applied would not prove the rapture of the saints but the annihilation of the saints, for not only is the word church (ekklesia) not used of the saints on earth in chapters 4 through 18, it also is never used of the saints in heaven. Does this mean that all the saints have vacated heaven and moved to Limbo or some other place during these chapters? No. Of course not! This argument, if consistently applied, leads to an incredibly absurd conclusion. The word church (ekklesia) does not even occur in the book of Revelation until Revelation 22:16. Does this mean the church is not involved in the second coming, the resurrection or white throne judgment? No. Obviously not! A careful examination of Revelation 4 through 19 proves conclusively that the church is on earth during this period. Avshalom
@ Chris...now about the wrath....most simply only want to use only half of this verse instead of the whole verse....they only mention (For God did not appoint us to wrath) but seem to leave out the rest....( but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.)....One of the most popular arguments for the pretribulation rapture is based on 1 Thessalonians 5:9, “For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.”.....It is argued that the great tribulation is an unprecedented time of God’s wrath falling upon the whole world. Since believers are specifically told that they are not appointed to wrath, it is only logical to conclude that the church will be removed from the earth before God’s wrath is poured out. This removal is the rapture of the saints. This argument for the rapture is fallacious for a number of reasons. First, it assumes that the wrath spoken of in verse 9 is the wrath poured out during the tribulation. The context of chapter 5 however makes it abundantly clear that the wrath spoken of in verse 5 is not the wrath of the tribulation but the wrath that occurs at the second coming of Christ—the day of the Lord (cf. 1 Th. 5:1-3). Second, it assumes that the only method at God’s disposal for protecting the church from His wrath is a total removal from the earth. An examination of the wrath of God in both testaments reveals that the Pretribulationist assumption is totally unwarranted. When God poured out His wrath upon Egypt, He spared the people of Israel (cf. Ex. 8:22-23; 9:4-6, 11, 26; 10:23; 11:7; 12:23; 14:28-29) without first removing them out of the land. The prophet Isaiah says explicitly that God can judge the earth without harming His own covenant people who remain on earth. “Come, my people, enter your chambers, and shut your doors behind you; hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment, until the indignation is past. For behold, the LORD comes out of His place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity; the earth will also disclose her blood, and will no more cover her slain” (Isa. 26:20-21). The nail in the coffin to the Pretribulationist use of 1 Thessalonians 5:9 comes from the book of Revelation which shows that God’s people are protected from His wrath during the tribulation. In Revelation 6:16 it is the heathen that ask the mountains and rocks to protect them from the wrath of the lamb. A wrath that falls as a response to the prayers of persecuted and martyred saints (Rev. 6:9-11). After the fifth trumpet is sounded, the locusts of destruction are ordered by God only to harm “those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads” (Rev. 9:4). God’s saints are specifically protected from harm. In Revelation 9:20-21 we are told that these plagues were directed to wicked men. Revelation 14:9-10 says that those who are to experience God’s wrath and undiluted indignation are those who receive the mark of the beast; who worship the beast and his image. This obviously excluded Christians. Revelation 16:1-2 says that God’s wrath (the first bowl) is only to be poured out on the worshipers of the beast, who have his mark. Once again believers are excluded. In 16:9 and 11 those who receive God’s plagues are identified as blasphemers who refuse to repent. A careful reading of Revelation demonstrates that although God’s people experience persecution, death and harm at the hands of wicked men they are carefully and lovingly excluded from every act of God’s wrath. God’s wrath only falls upon those who are the enemies of Christ and His church. The wrath that falls on the wicked is God’s loving response to the prayers of His saints. Does the church need to be completely removed from the earth to be spared from God’s wrath, as Pretribulationists assert? The Scriptures answer that question with an emphatic “no!” Avshalom
@ Chris....whether or not you hold it as fiction or not, the plain truth is the pre-trib rapture still is science -fiction and false doctrine....but you or anyone will find it impossible to sustain ANY position other than the one the Bible reveals which that the whole pre-trib doctrine that is so popular among many churches today is FALSE DOCTRINE....that is if you will be careful to truthfully study the scriptures to see what they actually say instead of what you want it to say....Although the pretribulation rapture theory is very popular today, given arguments that are offered in support of this doctrine we must declare Pretribulationalism to be contrary to the clear teachings of Scripture. Simply put, there is not one shred of evidence that can be found in the Bible to support the pretribulation rapture. The typical Pretribulational arguments offered reveal a pattern: of imposing one’s presuppositions onto a text without any exegetical justification whatsoever; of finding subtle meaning between words and/or phrases that were never intended by the author; of spiritualizing or ignoring passages that contradict the Pretribulational paradigm; and, of imposing Pretribulationalism upon passages that actually teach the unity of the eschatological complex (i.e., the rapture, second coming, general resurrection, and general judgment all occur on the same day—the day of the Lord). It is our hope and prayer that professing Christians would cast off this escapist fantasy and return to the task of personal sanctification and godly dominion. Avshalom (Alan)
Truthfully Steve..... when I enter these 'christain bookstores' I see thousands of book, cds,dvds, magazines, toys, keyrings, and more.....
I ask myself what can all these books bring to you that the bible doesnt.? Also to buy all that, would take 100's of thousands of dollars ...for what..... is that my point?
When you then see the section of 100's of different bibles ranging from a few dollars to hundreds of dollars.
when i see all this my heart grieves.
@ alan you take immense time to explain this....
how does one explain the pinnacle of time, the entire salvation plan of God, the very point everything is created in a few words and i applaud your efforts.
there are 1 million lies about this, however there remains ONE truth, which is in Christ.
folks when you read comments on this discussion put the word 'rapture' (not in the bible) and all your ideas out of your head.
check the verses quoted..... do you get harmony or not; if you dont then search all the related verses and study them.
people like alan spend alot of time to show you verses, go check them out carefully,
I see comments such as i believe in pre; post amill etc etc
get biblical folks, the answer is in the bible, and if you serch and study diligently and correctly.
Jesus gives us a answer, of his entire timeline of creation. from beginning of time until the very end of time.
One truth, one God. When God says we are to seek him to see his face, he means study his word the bible.
This pop (or science fiction like) Eschatology (endtime theology talk) is overly complicated and violates Occams Razor. It is not based on sound Biblical interpretations.
One of the reasons the whole house of cards, called Dispensational Futurism (akin to Hal Lindsay and Lahayism) is promoted....and I say this politely, is to hold onto the Old Covenant, and to promote the idea that the "Jews" are the exact same people that Moses lead out of Egypt. This is the reason they will say there is two chosen people, even though the Bible says we are one new man in Christ (Ephesians 2). This is the reason that they promote a tiny Jewish state, smaller than New Jersey, and smaller than Davids Israel, as a regathered Israel. Never mind what Galatians 3:29 and other verses say. This is the reason for their vain and useless speaking about a New Temple in Old Jerusalem, even though, a New Spiritual temple and Jerusalem is being built upon the foundation of the prophets and apostles, with Yeshua being the head... (Ephesians 2:19-21, Galatians 4....etc...).
This is the reason (and it is disgusting) some dispensationalist even say that a new Old Covenant type priesthood will be set up for work in and around the future New Temple!!!!! And (as an afront to God) some of these dispensationalist even say, with a smile, these priests will start to sacrifice lambs and animals... This will be abomination to God who has provided the perfect lamb, as the Book of Hebrews has explained. This is also a reason they come up with a cock-eyed, and illogical view of Daniel 9 and the 70 weeks of years (=490), where they pound a 2000 year period between the 69 and 70th week. Can one find an analogy? What if you are a parent and at 9:50 pm you tell your son or daughter that they have to be in bed by 11 pm. (or in 70 minutes) and at say 3 am you find the child up playing games.. When you ask the child why they are hours past their bedtime, the child boldly exclaims, 'the 70th minute has not came yet'!!! (Needless to say the full 490 years of Dan. 9 was completed around 32-33AD. but a 7 year tribulation period and rapture was needed to help the house of cards to stand.)
The theology of the Left Behind series has left behind sound exegesis and clear scriptures. It is strong on Science Fiction, weak on Bible... A
I should add a link connecting the above to a related forum about True Israel~~~~
The Adam Pedigree Chart
This chart goes from Adam down to European Royalty.
The chart is very large, so only part will be visible until you scroll down.
Descendants go down vertically. Sideways lines are lines through other children.
Royals near the bottom have links to family info, though full royal names may not be shown.
Adam & Eve ~4000 BC
Seth Gen 5:3 Adam + 130 b 3870 BC
Enos Gen 5:6 Adam + 235 b 3765 BC
Cainan Gen 5:9 Adam + 325 b 3675 BC
Mahalaleel Gen 5:12 Adam + 395 b 3605 BC P
Jared Gen 5:15 Adam + 460 b 3540 BC A
Enoch Gen 5:18 Adam + 622 b 3378 BC T
Methuselah Gen 5:21 Adam + 687 b 3313 BC R
Lamech Gen 5:25 Adam + 874 b 3126 BC I
Noah Gen 5:28 Adam + 1056 b 2944 BC A
Shem Gen 5:32 Adam + 1556 b 2444 BC R
Arphaxad Gen7:6-7, 11:10, 1Pet3:20 Adam + 1656 b 2344 BC C
Salah (Shalikh) King of Babylon Gen 11:12 b 2306 BC H
Eber (Heber) Ibn Salah King of Babylon Gen 11:14 b 2276 BC S
Peleg (Falikh) King of Babylon Gen 11:16 b 2242 BC
Reu (Ra'u) King of Lagash Gen 11:18 b 2212 BC
Serug (Saragh) King of Ur & Agade Gen 11:20 b 2180 BC
Nahor (Nahur) King of Ur & Agade Gen 11:22 b 2150 BC
Terah (Tarih) King of Agade Gen 11:24 b 2121 BC
Abraham Ben Terah & Sarah,----& Hagar Gen 11:26 b 2051 BC
| |-----------------------------------------Ishmael Ben Abraham Gen 16:16 b 1965 BC
Isaac Ben Abraham & Rebekah Gen 21:5 b 1951 BC - of Ishmael sprang also 12
Jacob (Israel, Kronos, Saturn) King of Goshen & Leah Gen 25:26 b 1891 BC tribes, and all of the Arabic nations
@ zomok, steve,
You aren't making fun of me. You are making fun of all the people on this site;that you and your little group have been deceiving and lying to. I am not the one that you have been deceiving.
Comment by Zomok, steve on April 3, 2012 at 1:50am
Protect freedom of speech and opinion..
Comment by Zomok, steve on April 3, 2012 at 1:18am
You have been very civil Dina and that is a good thing.
Comment by ministerKarl on April 2, 2012 at 9:16pm
@friends You are so very right.
Comment by Eloise on April 2, 2012 at 7:48am
So vary true my friend!! God Bless!
Comment by Zomok, steve on April 2, 2012 at 3:33pm
Some people on the site are starting to go overboard again. Lets use care...
Comment by Zomok, steve on February 26, 2012 at 4:14pm
The tongue is like matches in that it can be used for either good or bad.
Comment by Zomok, steve on February 21, 2012 at 5:14am
Speak nice and sweet things...The ancient Odes of Solomon, an early Christian work, is full of beautiful statements. Ode number 40 starts this way--
As the honey drips from the honeycomb, and milk comes from the mother who loves, my hope is upon you my dear lord.
Comment by Abba Akavich Avimelech on February 20, 2012at 9:52pm
Yea, I get all that Steve
Comment by Zomok, steve on February 20, 2012 at 9:25am
When you get right down to it, the tongue can be used for good or bad......but it is a most versatile weapon!!!
Comment by isabel guest on February 20, 2012 at 8:34am
this is a no nonsense blog
Well here are two more that have declined.
Reply by alan walton 47 minutes ago
Royll....you have been proven wrong so many times it ain't funny....the sad thing is is you are just too blind, stubborn ignorant or STUPID to see it.
Reply by Abba Akavich Avimelech 3 hours ago
I thought you were the commander Royll !!!!
This one I am not to sure of yet, but he is included also.
Reply by John Zomok 3 hours ago
The refussers so far:
That is four. I am still waiting on several men and women to reply that belong to their private group.
So far we are beginning to find out who the deceivers and liars have been all the time.
You see what they don't realize is that they are standing up for fourth century Christians, which is the Church and all the members.
Would that say by their none acceptance that everything that people have learned from the Churches has ben nothing but a lie over all these centuries.
Does it mean that nobody that attends the Churches are saved as they have been told.
Does that mean the none in the Churches Have the Holy Spirit as they say.
Does that say that everybody that belongs to the Churches are not going to heaven when Jesus
Does that men that all the numerous site that these people belong to means that they are actually lieing to the members on the sites and leading them in the wrong direction to receive the promise of eternal salvation.
You people have a lot on the line here both the males and females that have been constanly deceiving everybody.
I endorse this discussion because it has many responses presenting a variety of views. In this discussion you will find my answer to the pre-trib. rapture theory and see that it is invalid on several grounds.